The Dees-Vanderboegh Two-Times

The Dees-Vanderboegh Two-Times

Standard Issue

We Decide What's Fit 2 Print

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Their Purpose: To screw up the Nasty Right-WingNut Militia Movement by calling people they don't like a bunch of Nazis, to scrounge loose change from other left-wing nitwits, and to get any other fools in the Militia Movement that they can indoctrinate to kiss their ass.

Moreass the Sleezester Dees -- Liar-In-Chief
Red Mike Vanderboegh -- Gubbnmint Agent Provacateur & Nazi Bater

Fable of Contents

1.
2. The Open War Begins
3. High Water Mark For Red Mike
4. A Modern Militiaman Examines "The Dees-Vanderboegh Two-Times" -- Part 1
5. A Modern Militiaman Examines "The Dees-Vanderboegh Two-Times" -- Part 2
6. A Modern Militiaman Examines "The Dees-Vanderboegh Two-Times" -- Part 3A
7. A Modern Militiaman Examines "The Dees-Vanderboegh Two-Times" -- Part 3B
8. Assorted Hate E-Mail From the Dees-Vanderboegh 'Anti-Hate' Gruppenschiessenkopfenfuehers
9. Portrait of Red Mike Vanderboegh as a Moral Leper

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The Open War Begins

From the John Doe II Times WWW page

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John Doe Times Editorial Correspondence
For The Record
14 July 1997

Martin Lindstedt: PR Flack for Nazis and "Modern Collectivist Militiaman."

Martin Lindstedt, bane of the Missouri Libertarian Party and erstwhile editor of "The Modern Militiaman", has long been an apologist for neo-Nazi and Christian Identity Phineas Priests as our "most committed" allies in the struggle against unconstitutional government. Lindstedt sings a siren song, seductive to the ear of some in the Constitutional militia movement who long for allies, any ally, in the coming fight. Those familiar with my work know that I have long warned against adopting the attitude of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend." Anyone who has read The Turner Diaries (or studied the history of predecessor collectivists such as the German National Socialist Party or the Russian Bolsheviks) understands that the punishment for such delusions on the part of putative "allies" of neo-Nazis is becoming merely the last group in a long line of Nazi victims. Instead of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend", it would be more fitting to say "with friends like these, who needs enemies?"

The correspondence below arose out of a question Mr. Lindstedt posted on the Net "Who is Larry Wayne Harris?" Mr. Harris, Buckeye Aryan Nations' adherent and fiddler with toxic baccilli was recently given a tap-on-the-wrist sentence for playing around with biowar agents he ordered through the mail. (Is Mr. Harris another example of that species we comment most frequently upon in the pages of the JDT: a Fed-friendly rent-a-nazi?)

Mr. Lindstedt apparently asked his question without recognizing in advance that Mr. Harris was one of those "allies" he would have us embrace. I believe the phrase is: "hoist upon his own petard."

I present the following correspondence (and my dissecting commentary thereon) for the edification, amusement and education of all the Constitutional Militiamen who read the John Doe Times.

-- Mike Vanderboegh, 1 ACR
Editor, The John Doe Times

*********************************************

In a message dated 97-07-13 16:02:20 EDT, you write:

Subj: Re: SAFAN NO. 538. Who is Larry Wayne Harris? -OR- The Coming Holocaust.
Date: 97-07-13 16:02:20 EDT
From: mlindste@mail.clandjop.com (Martin Lindstedt)
To: Mo10Cav@aol.com (Mike Vanderboegh)

At 10:33 AM 7/12/97 -0400, you wrote:

>In a message dated 97-07-12 09:00:11 EDT, you write:
>
>"Who is Larry Wayne Harris?"
>
>Well, in point of fact, he's one of those "hardcorps" neo-Nazis
>you're so fond of singing the praises of. Federal rent-a-Nazi,
>more like.
> -- Mike Vanderboegh
>
(Lindstedt replies:)

Maybe he is. Did I not allow how he was a useful idiot for Freeh's Biologicals Inc.? But why is it such a big deal to you as to the religious and racial views of a rat?

I have found that a man of the right judges a person by their actions and that a man of the left judges people by what they say or think. Therefore Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot are OK while Adolf Hitler is the anti-Christ. You former flower-children never grow up, do you?

**********************************

MV's response: I am not a "former flower-child". I am an ex-communist, a fact which I have never made any bones of. "Flower children" smoked dope and swapped sexually transmitted diseases along with their illusions about peace, love and fuzzy socialism. The people I hung around with (and, indeed, that I was myself) were the ideological twins of the neo-Nazis and Phineas Priests: true-believing collectivists who would kill you in a heartbeat if the party leader (read commisar or fuhrer, it makes no difference) ordered it.

I have never apologized for communist murderers such as Stalin, Mao or Pol Pot-- at least not since the late Seventies when the truth about the killing fields destroyed any illusions I had about asian communists (or any others) being little Jeffersonian democrats. The lies and hypocrisy I saw in the communist and socialist movements of my youth are the same in neo-Nazi and racial collectivist groups you admire.

There is no greater anti-communist than an ex-communist. You may rank me as both, thank you very much. Indeed for all your self-proclaimed "realistic" view of the world, it is somewhat astounding that you haven't noticed that Nazis are simply a twisted permutation of the collectivist impulse. They are no better, or worse, than communists. Would you make common cause with communists, or accept them as allies? I would not. Indeed, I think the communists have killed more human beings in this century than Nazis, but that begs the point. It is the Nazis (and their "racialist" fellow packdogs the "Mistaken Identities") that you wish us to ally with. After all, Martin, they call themselves National SOCIALISTS for a reason, you know.

And before you jump to the old lie: "Don't you remember World War II? Nazis are the world's most committed anti-communists!"-- That two collectivist empires seeking hegemony over Europe should tear each other apart is mostly an accident of geography, not principle. Remember the Hitler-Stalin Pact? Did the Poles care which collectivist symbol, the swastika or the hammer-and-sickle, that their murderers wore?

Martin, as someone who was doing clandestine armed political work (albeit for the wrong side) when you were in short britches, I can tell you that I pay attention to both what someone says AND what someone does. "By their works ye shall know them," a preacher told me in my youth. I'm "grown up" enough to recognize the truth in that. I'm curious, though, to know what part of the "works" of the Nazis you don't understand?

*************************************************

I do not see any point to grouping everyone who may not be as advanced in their professed love of blacks, Jews and Hispanics as I might be, politically collectivizing them to my right, and then thrusting them all beyond the pale as not so good as I am. Such an approach, while gratifying to the ego, is rather unproductive. Such reasoning, a staple of Fed and media 'thought,' should be alien to Patriot thinking. I know why the Feds and major media parrot such a line. Why do you?

*********************************************

MV: Again, you mistake the "politically correct" ravings of Dees & Co. with the thrust of my opposition to the neo-Nazis and their "Christian" Ident allies. Ego and political correctness have absolutely nothing to do with it. The enemy of my enemy is not MY friend. Get it? Just because Dees opposes neo-Nazis for money, does not mean someone who opposes them for principle is Dees' friend. Just because the neo-Nazis mouth anti-Administration rhetoric does not make them my friends, either. Not by a long shot.

I don't know what kind of behavior you show to "allies", or you expect them to show to you. My allies are people who I can trust not to stab me in the back. People who I can tie my flank to in the sure and certain notion that they will not break and leave me high and dry. People who would tell me the truth, even though I might not like to hear it, or it reflects poorly on them. People who I would share the last box of ammo with, and who would do the same for me. People I can trust not to get me killed just because their "fuhrer" told them it was time to "change policies."

Most importantly, my allies are people who look at things unsentimentally, whose eyes are not clouded by hate or dogma, by guided by principle. Constitutional principles they are, without regard of race, creed, color or religion. And I'm sure some of my allies are "racist", by definition. So what? By definition the First Amendment gives anyone the right to hate anyone else in this country.

But the point of the rest of the Constitution is to make sure that no one group of "haters" gets to exercise undue negative influence over another to their detriment. I don't care if someone has formed opinions that I haven't about any other group in the country, as long as they adhere to the rules of our Constitutional Republic as laid down in the Constitution. That's why we're called "Constitutional" militiamen and women. (I had to laugh at the hair-splitting, legalese in your essay "There ain't no such thing as a Constitutional Militia." What part of the concept, "Citizens under arms to enforce their Constitutional liberties" don't you understand?) "Haters" and "collectivists" can be two different critters. Haven't you noticed?

*********************************************

Why are you engaged in the current propaganda war, the current kulturkampf, in spreading the notion that the effective Resistance = overt racism and thus a threat to the further decay of this civilization?

******************************************

MV: "Kulturkampf"? My, we are using big Nazi words. My message, if I have one beyond the headline-driven disclosures of the Oklahoma City bombing conspiracy and coverup, is that "Overt racism" DOES NOT EQUAL "effective resistance." Indeed, if there's a lesson in Oklahoma City it is that your neo-Nazi and Christian Identity pards are completely controlled and throughly infiltrated by the Feds, making them "cat's paws" rather than prowling 'jagdpanthers." You would ally yourself with people who have allied themselves with the greatest enemy of liberty in this country-- the Clinton Administration.

There is not a neo-Nazi or Christian Identity group that you can name that I could not name a top-level federal informant in (and oft times their control agent). This includes some of the biggest names in "der Kampf" including men who have set up supposed unknown-to-the-Feds "leaderless resistance" cells. What a joke! I do not sell the concept short. Indeed, I spent three years of clandestine organizing in the Constitutional militia movement before I was "outed" by a careless contact. But the neoNazi movement, it's mailing lists, it's phone conversations and it's leaders have all been for sale for the last 30 or 40 years. Dennis Mahon once told me in a phone conversation that there wasn't a man or woman in his "Movement" (which I hope you understand is not the same as mine) that wouldn't sit at home and do nothing if the Feds paid them $20,000 a year. And you want to make people like this your allies?

*****************************************

You are of sufficient age to recollect that thirty years ago in your area of the country that segregation was a patriotic given. Perhaps the people who you claim to be Neo-Nazis now would have fit in quite well in the South 30 years ago without feeling a need for the more extreme political baggage they carry now. Thirty years ago perhaps it was you who were the socialist, and alien to your section's customs and mores. In which case would it not have been better for you to have gone to work in a Yankee newspaper writing forced-integrationist drivel and otherwise openly pissing on the graves of your Confederate great grand-sires?

*********************************************

MV: Uh, a couple of points here. First, the Klan of the Fifties and Sixties had no truck with neoNazis. Couldn't stand 'em. Why? Well, they might have been racists, but most of them (or their brothers or cousins) had been to Europe in World War II and had no love for the swastika. They had seen it's fruit first hand. Also, again you are making the argument that terrorism and terrorists = effective political resistance. In fact it was the church bombings and assassinations which broke the back of the state's rights movement, although most of its adherents were opposed to terrorism as practiced by the FBI-controlled Ku Klux Klan. Do you think that's some kind of accident? Do you think that by allying yourself with federally-controlled terrorists today that you serve the cause of liberty any better than what happened in the Sixties? Absent the terrorism (which dominated the headlines, fed right into the Northerner's preconceptions if not prejudice about the South and broke the back of the legal resistance to federal power), the state's righters might have had a chance to make their case (or at least give their political leaders a chance to use the doctrine of interposition effectively). Identified in the public mind with terrorists, they could not make the political and legal points necessary to win their case. I happen to believe that enforced legal discrimination was a bad cause to put the Tenth Amendment to, but the fact is that any chance to preserve the right of the states to deal with their own affairs was destroyed by the federally-controlled terrorists. See any parallels?

Second, they ain't necessarily MY "Confederate great grand-sires," although that doesn't mean I don't honor their sacrifice. I came to Alabama in 1985. By virtue of my sterling personality and spiritual growth, I hope to attain an official Southern green card in another couple of years. I was born in Michigan, shanghaied at an early age and raised in Ohio amongst the "heathen Buckeye". Most of my "great grand-sires" wore the blue, although there was (we think) at least one of our folk on my mother's side of the line who fought for the Confederacy. This apparently does not alienate the numbers of native Alabamians who support my leadership of the 1st Alabama Cavalry Regiment (Constitutional Militia). It may be because I enunciate principles they believe in. It may be because they trust me not do anything that will get them killed without purpose or principle. It may be because no one else was stupid enough to take the job. But there it is. In any case, I piss on no one's grave, save Hitler's and Stalin's, and a few of their collectist buddies now merrily blazing in hell. And I promise you this, I'll piss on Timothy McVeigh's grave and that of every federally-sanctioned neo-Nazi and christian Identity terrorist who killed those 168 people in Oklahoma City the moment they're in the ground. And if you rank yourself as their friend and ally and kill some innocents yourself, I'll piss on yours as well.

*********************************************

The White Nationalist and Christian Identity movements have been hurt as a result of the rapscallions you document betraying them and selling them out. For a full decade at least they have borne the brunt of the Resistance and taken the casualties long before the middle-class suburban militia general tried their hand at the game of playing at revolution.

****************************************

MV: "Rapscallions"? Sounds like you need to take a job of neoNazi Counter Intelligence Officer instead of impersonating a liberty-loving militiaman.

****************************************

Frankly, the militia generals, with their incessant declarations and screetching of love for everyone, have been a considerable disappointment for anyone wanting to get anything serious accomplished.

****************************************

MV: a. I ain't a general, never claimed to be. b. I don't "love" everyone, but I see the two "declarations" that I've had occasion to author (and that thousands of Constitutional militia folk signed onto) as a good way to delineate the ground you will fight for, and why. c. As far as being a "disappointment" to folks "wanting to get anything serious accomplished." What serious things did you have in mind to accomplish? More OKCs? You want to validate the federal police state, perhaps? Or do you want to skip the Turner Diaries-like repression and go straight to the Day of the Rope? Is Rahowa (racial holy war) what really floats your boat?

The key thing here is, what do YOU want to accomplish, Mr. Lindstedt? I have drawn few conclusions about you from your previous writings save this:

You once wrote, in reference to OKC and other terrorist actions that "There are no innocents". The babies in that daycare weren't innocents, Mr. Lindstedt? The people who visited the federal building, or even the non-law enforcement federal employees weren't innocents, Mr. Lindstedt? What is there about an Agriculture Department employee, that by virtue of the job alone, requires his or her death? The very concept that there ARE innocents in war, that there are laws of land warfare that must be respected by belligerents including the refraining from attacks on innocent civilians is what separates civilized armies from butchering barbaric hordes. The moment you believe, as you apparently do, Mr. Lindstedt, that there are no innocents-- at that moment you become a barbarian. Do you shoot helpless prisoners, too, Mr. Lindstedt? Rape female POWs? Or is killing babies with precisely targeted bombs the end of your own catalog of personally-allowable atrocities?

If I am a "disappointment" to terrorists and barbarians, Mr. Lindstedt, I proudly wear the title.

*************************************************

I asked you before, and still ask you now for a serious debate on recognizing the Christian Identity, White Nationalist, and even Neo-Nazi place in the overall Resistance movement. You have refused. Which is of course your right and is irrelevant in any case. Your refusal to raise your views in any open forum means merely that by default these people will take over the vanguard, as they have already. You are presently cooly viewed as a militia-general collaborator with Morris Dees -- a scalawag narking out your kin for the benefit of federal carpetbaggers.

*****************************************

MV: I guess I should have responded to you before this, but I've been a little busy "narking out" (as you say) for the Constitutional militias your federal-terrorist partners. Not for Morris Dees, who by the way never lists a federal operation in his literature unless it's to assist his federal overseers in one way or another. (Check for pre-bombing mentions of Elohim City in Klanwatch. A classic case of "the dog who didn't bark.") Morris does not count me as a friend. I am in fact one of his worst enemies, and have done more than most to expose him. Deeswatch, my first on-line effort, has sent hundreds of pounds of Dees-related material via FedEx to people who have been slandered by him and are suing him (or considering same) all over the country.

I guess you may consider this my "serious debate" response. I look forward to more of your defense of the indefensible. It is amusing if nothing else, and very revealing to exactly the people you hope to convert to your line of thinking.

As far as "federal carpetbaggers", I must confess that I have had limited personal experience with the type, almost all of whom are reputed neoNazis and Christian Identity FBI assets, who coincidentally, you spend an awful lot of time defending.

*********************************************

You do not understand and cannot understand the people you write about because you have no empathy for them. That which you do write about the traitors and informants within our midst does not detract from our views and it adds to our unit security. So yes, even you serve a purpose. We listen to you, although you are not viewed with any affection or respect. They understand you very well.

-- Martin Lindstedt.

****************************************

MV: Well, I guess I can rest easy now that I know I "serve a purpose". The "within our midst" quote I guess means that you have dropped all pretense and identify yourself with the neoNazis, et al. I'm glad I've been able to help you come to this self-knowledge, grass-hopper. Of course, I guess I knew it all along, but it's nice to know for the wider audience. I seek neither affection nor respect from the Clintonistas and their neo-Nazi terrorist allies.

You're quite wrong you know. While it is true I have no empathy for your buddies, I understand them all too well. So do 168 Oklahomans I could name.

--Mike Vanderboegh, 1 ACR
Editor, The John Doe Times

Read on for more of the Outing of A NAZI

Back to the Index

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The High Water Mark for Red Mike

From the John Doe II Times WWW page

Time E-Mail Sent by Red Mike: 9:26 a.m. 7/18/97

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18 July 1997

Dear Martin,

Despite your complaint below to Mr. Alexander, the fact is that I have sent copies of my reply directly to both you and PIML. I received your reply to Carl while I was formulating my own reply to him, so instead I will simply cc: him with this because you have, once more, made my point that I am actually casting pearls before neo-Nazi swine, or perhaps a herder of swine.

As I have received from you no direct reply to my missive, can I conclude that you do not dispute my main points?:

1. That you and your friends are indeed collectivists rather than constitutional republicans.

2. That as you believe there are no innocents in warfare, you are barbarians and war criminals-in-embryo awaiting your opportunity to turn the countryside into Serbia-to-the-twelfth-power.

3. You and your friends in fact inhabit another movement entirely than the Constitutional Militia movement, to wit, the "racialist" white separatist/supremacy movement, a white tribalism doppelganger of Tutsis and Hutus, or in the modern American example, Farrakhan's FOI.

4. That that movement is a wholly-controlled subsidiary of the federal administration and has been for years.

5. That were you and your friends (little nazis) ever to change places with the Clinton administration (Big Nazis) that the cause of liberty would be even more mangled than it is today, with an even greater bodycount.

6. That it would be interesting for you to spell out exactly what you believe the world should look like after the "revolution" you seek. You are a self-described "revolutionist", after all.

I have taken the liberty of commenting upon your comments below. They are well marked out, as before.

-- Mike Vanderboegh, 1 ACR

Editor, The John Doe Times

In a message dated 97-07-18 02:51:39 EDT, you write:

<Martin, FYI.
 >Carl

    Thanks. I got the above from other friends, although not from 
 Vanderboegh or PIML.

 --Martin Lindstedt

 >
 >     To: Mo10Cav@aol.com                     Order #7940572
 >   From: Carl
 >Subject: RE: PIML] MARTIN LINDSTEDT: PR FLACK FOR
 >   Date: 07/15/97 06:49 AM
 >
 >Mr. Vanderboegh,
 >
 >   Just finished reading the exchanges between you and Martin Lindstedt,
 >and I am rather taken aback - as I have been corresponding with Martin for
 >a couple of months now, and had no idea he held any such opinions.
 >
    "and had no idea he held any such opinions."
    What opinions do you deem acceptable, Carl?

********************************************************
MV Comment: Carl's point is, I think, that you never revealed your
collectivist side until pushed.  I pushed you, you responded, Carl was
surprised by your reply.  I would comment to Carl that this is entirely
consistent with collectivists of all stripes (communist, Nazi and all
shadings in between).  They would never tell you anything they felt you
couldn't handle, or had no right to know.  Collectivists do not trust the
people to know the truth and make decisions themselves.  Collectivists are by
definition manipulators.
******************************************************* 

 >   The only thing I know about either of you, is from what I have read of
 >your postings to the net (The John Doe Times is excellent, by the way, and
 >I look forward to each `issue'). I am wondering however, if there is not a
 >certain amount of `personality-clash' occurring here, driving each of you
 >towards more extreme positions than you might normally take?
 
    You are somewhat right in the above regard.  However, most of the 
 disagreement is ideological. 

    I have observed Vanderboegh for some time now.  I see how he acts 
 with others not as excellent with words as I am, and frankly, I have 
 been waiting for a justification to act with my take upon Vanderboegh.

 ***************************************************
MV Comment:  Martin, you and I share several acquaintances, a couple of
informants, and one friend.  I'm told you are a stand up guy with your
friends.  You are said to be brave.  I have no doubt.  I am merely more
careful in my choice of friends.  Hitler liked dogs and small children but it
didn't make him humanitarian of the year.  Your ideological conclusions are
wrong, and based, I think, on the geography where you live, the narrowness of
your focus, and a certain Teutonic outlook that may indeed be genetic.  If
you had experience with the larger picture of resistance to the
Administration, you would not be so insular and eager to fall back on friends
who are a pitifully small minority of self-marginalized individuals.  The
"militia generals" which you so rightly despise are self-important little
fish who proclaim their part of the pond to be the Atlantic Ocean.  Likewise,
the neo-nazis, Christian Identity-types, and Kluxers that you hang with get
together and make common cause precisely because they are so few they must
agree on lowest common denominator beliefs (blacks = mud people, Jews =
devil) just to get up a quorum.  In your pond, they are perhaps the biggest
fish.  But the world is wide, and the members of the movement I belong to--
the Constitutional militia movement-- are to be found in every pond, lake,
stream and ocean.  Indeed, it is our size that the Administration fears.

The point is, you have written that we need allies like the Nastys, the
Mistaken Identities, and the Sheetheads to resist the Clinton Administration.
 You have misread the size, scope and latent power of the Resistance
movement.  We don't need them.  They need us.  They need us for trolling
grounds for converts.  They need us so that they can hide in our shadow. They
need us to make the mistake of making them our allies, because they not only
are pitifully outnumbered, but they couldn't fight their way out of a paper
bag.  I have no doubt that some of them are top-notch assassination teams.
 But when the bulk of the Constitutional militia movement mobilizes, any
federally-controlled Nazis in the way will either head for the hills or be
crushed.

It is not your "excellence with words" that I take issue with, but your
slowly-becoming-clear-ideology.
**********************************************  

 >
 >   I ask that question because nothing Martin ever said to me, personally,
 >or in the public posts of his I have seen, ever gave any indication that he
 >was a `hater', or a racist, or a facist (of any variety). And yet, after a
 >long & bitter exchange, his last statements seem to belie that. I find it
 >hard to believe, that they could have been made from any other motive than
 >anger.
 >

    Carl, you don't know me. You don't know what I've lived through, 
 what I've observed.
    Suffice it to say that unlike most people I have a reason for 
 about every thing I do, and for the way that I reason.

 *****************************************
MV Query:  And what, praytell, is that reason?
 *****************************************

 >   Your points concerning the danger from the White Christian Identity/
 >Neo-nazi movement are well-taken, Mr. Vanderboegh, and you are correct in
 >your estimation of the threat they represent to all Patriots. Fanatics and
 >`true believers' are always dangerous to both their enemies, and their
 >allies - for the simple reason they have no real allies. If you are not OF
 >them, and thereby FOR them, then you are ultimately against them. That is
 >the way they view the world, and everyone in it - no doubt, an extension of
 >the paranoidal/pyschotic delusions they operate within.
 
     Carl, will you please listen to yourself, read above your above 
 posting, strip away your sense that you are better than those people 
 you describe, and look how what you said about fanaticism could as 
 easily apply to yourself -- if you let it?

 *******************************************
MV:  I should think that Carl's appeal for reason and reconciliation,
ill-starred though it is, should be prima facie evidence that he is not a
fanatic.  As far as "stripping away the sense that you are better than the
people you describe", I must say Martin that no statement you have made is
more revelatory of your collectivist side.  What liberal have you not heard
wringing-hands over some politically-correct barbarian killer, "Oh but we
must UNDERSTAND him (them) and realize we should not be judgemental."?  Of
course Carl and I are better than Aztec heart-eaters, atavistic barbarian
murderers, Nazi concentration camp guards, Bill and Hillary Clinton and any
number of collectivists I could name!  We have principles.  We adhere to the
Constitution and the Faith we have.  If you choose to be morally-relative and
consider yourself no better than them is it because you believe, like them,
that they (and you) are "Supermenschen"?  Again, I care not what beliefs
anyone has, as long as they adhere to the Constitution and do not serve the
interest of my oppressors, the Clinton Administration.  As your friends serve
the interests of my enemies, they cannot be my friends.  
*************************************

    Vanderboegh does not have a single ally, a single friend other than 
 himself and the unknown people who made him a militia general.

 ****************************************
MV:  a.) Again, I am not, nor have I ever claimed to be, a "general" of
militia or anything else.  b.) The above statement shows either your
ignorance of reality, or a propensity to lie about uncomfortable facts.  Once
again, you are suffering from little pond syndrome.
****************************************

 >
 >   But Martin Lindstedt has a valid point that he is trying to make, also.
 >And as I understand him, it is this - just because a man has been labeled a
 >`racist' by the powers that be, as an attempt to smear or discredit him, is
 >no reason he should be treated as a pariah, or an outcast, by the Patriot
 >Cause.
 >
 >   The enemy of my enemy may be MY enemy, also... but that is not
 >necessarily true, Mr. Vanderboegh. There is always a chance, he can turn
 >out to be a friend.
 >
 >   And to turn our backs and abandon such a man to the Neo-nazi's, who
 >will welcome him with open arms & seek to instill their hatred and their
 >worldview into his soul (until like themselves he is beyond redemption)
 >is not a wise course of action, Mr. Vanderboegh.
 >
 
    I thank you for your worrying about my soul and possibilities of 
 redemption, while at the same time you irritate the hell out of me 
 with your conceit of smugness.

************************************
MV: Sorry, Carl, you too, it seems, have cast your pearls before "Schweinen."
I concede that there are some folks who are irritated by my blunt
presentation.  And there is always the danger that writing about things in
the aggregate can mischaracterize a specific point, or individual.  It is
apparent though from Mr. Lindstedt's reply that I was more right about him
than you had hoped.
*********************************** 

    I have observed the Resistance movement and let me tell you that 
 it is the Christian Identity and White Nationalist movements who 
 know what they want, and how they propose to get it. 

************************************************
MV: Oh they sure do, Martin.  You're right about that.  Turner Diaries, here
we come!  Thanks for making my point.
***********************************************

What they wish to do is seceed from the country and set up a new nation where

 they will be in the majority.  Or are only people like Carol Moore 
 allowed to leave because of their superior morality?

*****************************************
MV: And you find nothing wrong with this, Martin?
*****************************************

    Let me ask you this: Who do you think has more influence over 
 the CI and White Nationalists?  Myself or Vanderboegh? 

**********************************************
MV:  Oh, Martin, I concede that you have more influence over CI and White
Nationalists (read Nazis).  Isn't that rather like being King of the Maggots,
however?
*********************************************

 For that  matter over the Resistance movement? 
    It is the people who are doing something who are effective. Not 
 those who have subjective reasons as to how they don't like another 
 group of people.

*******************************************
MV:  Which of us has more influence in the Resistance movement will be judged
by history.  Which of our philosophies is more in tune with the aggregate of
the Constitutional Militia movement is, I think, obvious right now.  You
lose.
*******************************************
 
 >   Your and Martin's disagreement over the relative worth and `value'
 >of various partisan groups in the overall struggle, should not cloud that
 >issue. Personally, I believe that those like Butler of the Aryan Nations,
 >or Mathews of The Order, have done more to HARM the Patriot cause than help
 >it, by alienating enormous numbers of people who would otherwise be more
 >actively involved in this struggle.
 >
 
    An enormous number of people, undefined, who are not there, who 
 have the excuse that someone most of them never heard about keeps 
 them from joining the Resistance.
 
 >   But be that as it may, it is not sufficient reason for people like you
 >and Martin to start ripping each other to shreds in the public forum. We
 >should not eat each other alive, Mr. Vanderboegh - for the Patriot cause
 >is not well served in that manner, either.
 >
 >   Both you and Mr. Lindstedt are Patriots, in my estimation, though you
 >hold differing views about certain issues. That is to be expected, and
 >applauded, in any movement whose real purpose is Liberty for all. I respect
 >and admire both of you men, whose intellectual & patriotic accomplishments
 >are so much greater than my own. But before either of you start picking out
 >supporters and choosing up sides, I would urge you both to once again
 >LISTEN to what the other is trying to say - not for the sake of argument or
 >refutation - but to understand each other, and give credit where credit is
 >due.
 >
 
    Vanderboegh is no patriot in my estimation. I know his past history.
 It isn't good. 
    I have every intention of putting Vanderboegh in quarantine by 
 reciting that past history. It is not out of a sense of malice. 
 It is something which must be done, however.

*********************************************
MV: Whether I am a patriot, or whether Martin can be considered a patriot,
should be judged by the answer to the question, "Patriot" to which country
and what cause?

There is an oath that our Founder's came up with.  It's violation by
officeholders large and small is the reason for our troubles today.  You know
the one, "Bear true faith and allegiance"..."preserve, protect and defend the
Constitution of the United States"..  "against all enemies foreign and
domestic."  If that's the standard you judge patriots by, I think history
will judge me a patriot.  Martin can speak for himself.  Some of his buddies
are the last thing you would think of when you hear the word patriot.

I am curious to know what part of my "past history" there is that Martin
feels somewhat indictable.  I urge him to publish it far and wide. 

Let's see, it can't be that I'm a "snitch", paid provocateur or other such
slime such as inhabits his friend's "movement."  I've never taken a dime of
federal money, am not now, nor never have worked for any federal, state,
local or other law enforcement agency as an employee or "snitch". When John
Parsons was revealed to have taken federal money during my stint on the
Tri-States advisory board, I made sure people knew about it and resigned
quite publicly.  No, it can't be he thinks I'm a snitch.

What else could it be?  Unlike Martin, I have never claimed to be something
I'm not, nor have I hid any part of my beliefs.  I have made it plain to all
that I am an ex-, and very anti-, communist.  So what?  Martin probably used
to be a member of the Democratic Party when he was growing up.  Of course
then he became a Libertarian (much to their regret).  I wonder what the
Libertarians would say if he knew that his current buddies would stand them
all against the wall and shoot them if they ever came to power.  A
collectivist in libertarian clothing.  Now there's something more scandalous
than being an ex-communist. 
******************************************

    I do not care about the number of supporters. I do care about their 
 quality and expect to prevail.

***************************************
MV: Prevail against what and whom seems to be the important question.
*************************************** 
 
 >    There is a long and difficult road ahead of us, gentlemen. And as
 >another Patriot, of another time, once remarked, "We must indeed all hang
 >together, or, most assuredly, we shall all hang separately."
 >
 
    There is neither trust nor liking present here. I fully expect a 
 knife from Vanderboegh whenever Vanderboegh manages to convince his 
 opposition that they are Nazis. And he does it so often.
 
 --Martin Lindstedt

 *****************************************
MV: A good writer merely presents facts and argument in a credible fashion.
 If he is believed, it may be because he's right.  
***************************************** 
 
 >    Words, quite literally, to live by.
 >
 >  To Liberty, and Justice for all,
 >
 >  Carl Alexander
 >

  *****************************************
MV: Carl, I too, am fond of the Franklin quote.  You must remember, however,
that Mr. Lindstedt's friends intend to hang us all before it's over.  Indeed,
many of them work with, and to the interests of, the big Hangman, Bill
Clinton.  "Hanging together" with your own Hangman does not, in my
estimation, make a whole lot of sense,
Thanks for your letter.

-- Mike
*******************************************  

.

.

.

A Modern Militiaman Examines "The Dees-Vanderboegh Two-Times"

Part One

Time sent: 4:18 pm, 7/18/97


   There has been a personal attack leveled against me by yet another 
militia general, one Mike Vanderboegh, who claims to lead a militia 
cavalry regiment some place in Alabama.  His real forte, however, is 
harnessing a sphincter-void ingress and egress largely devoid of mental 
activity to churning out a conspiracy scandal sheet called "The 
John 2 Doe Times."  His name is Mike Vanderboegh and he is regrettably 
a fixture, like a combination toilet and food-processor, in the 
militia movement.

   Now don't get me wrong.  I'm no angel. I have been angling for 
this particular sewer trout for a long time, looking for the proper 
turd to use as bait. Several offers to openly debate the issue of 
recognizing the Christian Identity and White Nationalist militia 
groups.  Nothing.  I knew that sooner or later, he would strike, 
but not when I was looking. And that such would be his moral 
sensibility that he would be proud of catching me by surprize.  
The situation of my not knowing of one Larry Wayne Harris's 
alleged/confirmed past/present Aryan Nations membership was the 
case in point. I have not had said membership proven to me as I 
am not the treasurer of the Aryan Nations, nor, contrary to 
Vanderboegh's feeble powers of observation, do I keep the 
membership lists.

   So yes, I have been looking forward for an excuse to plug this 
skunk for a long time now.  I will do my best not to let him slip 
away with pelt intact.  While I am mainly doing this out of a sense 
of duty to the Resistance movement, those of you who have suffered 
the pretentious squirtings of this morally leperous syphilitic can 
enjoy his comeuppance.

             ----------------------------------------------

   I actually read Vanderboegh's ravings. Although I have been 
invited to visit Elohim City, I have not gone. I prefer to wait for 
the agents provacateurs' off-season, whenever that is.  Unlike 
Vanderboegh I have met Pastor Dr. Robert Millar.  I have used much 
of Vanderboegh's cullings of various press clippings (the plagarisms 
of which, for all intents and purposes, are the only items of value 
in Vanderboegh's newsletter) to do my own research into writing a 
series of satirical articles called "The Manchurian Oswald's Right 
Buttock. 
   (This story involves the struggle of good and evil for the soul of 
Timothy McVeigh between a Resistance microchip implanted in McVeigh's 
right buttock and the CIA microchip planted in McVeigh's left buttock.
There is no "Deep Threat." There is no Brother Elijah of the Phineas 
Priesthood. The Melchizadek doesn't exist. There is no Phineas 
Priesthood. There is no Louis Beam. I made it all up. Now I can 
live.)
   The monomaniacal monorail plot-track of Vanderboegh's monologue in 
his John Doe 2 Times is simple: (1) The Feds catch and convert 
Neo-Nazis to do all their dirty work, like bank robbing and building 
bombing. (2) Anyone who works for the Feds is a Nazi, neo or not. 
(3) The Feds, pore silly critters, can't keep up with all them Nazis 
they got. 
   Vanderboegh's plot line is really simple-circular reasoning 
at work. A sample issue reads like "The Boys From Brazil," "Von 
Hogan's Heroes" and "F-Troop" scripts collided and got shuffled 
together, but like "Dallas" there is never an end to the story line
unless Vanderboegh's evil warehouse boss, psychiatric attention, 
or a directive from Moscow interferes.
   But I like it. It's fun. I like it a lot. I even repeat it. 
A lot. And I'll stop it before I go blind. Which is more than 
can be said for Vanderboegh.  Pore X-Commie got Nazis on the 
brain, what little is left of it.

Next:  
   Part 2;   Tuck In Your Grins  :-{(
                -- OR -- 
         Some of What Vanderboegh Says 
           Actually Makes Sense  :-{0

.

.

A Modern Militiaman Examines "The Dees-Vanderboegh Two-Times"

Part Two

Time sent: 4:18 pm 7/18/97


   In Part 1, I used humor to highlight Vanderboegh's pretentions 
as to the factual basis for his John Doe II Times.  Now I will 
attempt to bring reason to bear.  An ability to reason is in short suppy 
in the militia general community, and Vanderboegh is certainly no 
exception to that general rule.

   The premises of every John Doe 2 Times are as follows: 
      1) The Feds catch and convert Neo-Nazis to do all their dirty 
         work, like bank robbing and building bombing. 
     2) Anyone who works for the Feds is a Nazi, neo or not. 
     3) The Feds, pore silly critters, can't keep up with all them 
       Nazis they got on the payroll. 

   When you believe in above premises, any fact can be twisted and 
shaped to fit to justify a conclusion.  The resulting reasoning is 
circular, with the circle growing tighter and tighter as all cognitive 
reasoning ability is wrung out of the mix. The end process can be 
compared to a blood-thirsty weasel chasing, and then catching its 
tail, chewing it down to the nub and getting to the goody-box in a 
rabid fury for its own sake.

   You see, every true Resistance fighter already knows full well 
that it was the government that bombed its own building in OKC. 
McVeigh may have well blown up a Ryder truck, but it was the Fed's
demolition charges on the building columns which destroyed the 
building and led to a massive loss of life. We truly know who, 
how, and why an Amerikan Reichstag was staged.

   So the attraction for Vanderboegh's John Doe II Times within the 
militia movement is confirmation that yes, the government was behind 
the work of terrorists all along.  Every terrorist attack is the work of 
the government, which hires criminals to do it. Nazi criminals.
   So with great fanfare and monomaniacal zeal, Vanderboegh collects 
information from major newspapers concerning his conspiracy theories. 
And we read it.  It is gratifying to read in one place all these 
articles confirming what we knew all along.  Thank God for Vanderboegh!
Yes, he must be right in everything he says inserted within all this 
mass media information. What a great selfless patriot Vanderboegh is, 
distributing this stuff!  How sweet it is!

   But understand this: Strip away the mass media articles and get to 
Vanderboegh's commentary by itself, and all we have left in the sample 
jar is Vanderboegh's X-Communist hatred of anyone who destroys government 
buildings and government workers or is an effective rebel against 
the government.  They are all Nazis.  They are all National Socialists, 
a competing brand of socialism from his allegedly former doxology. 
Hence my term for him as being an X-Communist. X marks the Spot.
   Saying the gubbnmint hired all these agents provacateur to commit 
terrorist activities is Vanderboegh's ticket of admission to the 
militia movement.  Once you discount the ticket, Vanderboegh sounds a 
lot like a fellow Alabaman:  A militia movement composed altogether of 
Nazis and other right-wing hate groups are plotting to overthrow "our" 
government, from which all good benefits flow.  Sound familiar? These 
premises are the same ones advanced in Morris Dees' morally flatulent 
emissions.  The main difference (other than admitting the gubbnmint 
had a hand in things, the dime admission to the militia general's 
executive port-a-potty) between the X-Commie Vanderboegh's message 
and Moreass the Sleezester's ravings is that at least Moreass doesn't 
claim to be an ex-socialist and gubbnmint hater.
   But as I have previously mentioned in another post, to socialists 
and other creatures of the left what a person THINKS, as opposed to 
his actions, is all important.  If Timothy McVeigh, a loner who was 
wound up setting off our Amerikan Reichstag, had only whimpered something 
about the "Equality of Man" when he lit the fuse, then perhaps he would 
be recognized by the Dees-Vanderboegh Two-Times as a great freedom 
fighter instead of mere Nazi offal.  If Little Timmy Tuttle had only 
brushed up on his Mao and Che Guevera and trashed the William Pierce, 
then perhaps all would have been well, sort of like the Unabomber 
Manifesto.  In any case, it is never too late for McVeigh to "grow" 
if he will only renounce Brand Y, National Socialism, in favor of 
The D-V2 Times's Brand X socialist doxology.

   Is the difference between heroism and villany merely what the actor 
thinks?  Is bombing a government building and having a part in killing 
19 children an act of terrorism if you have a mental process devoted 
to the advance of German National Socialism but burning down a private 
church with 25 or 26 children in it an act of heroism which went wrong 
if you believe in an Amerikan version of socialism?
   Exactly such are the beliefs and moral values of a sizable proportion 
of the American public.  Such are the beliefs in a moral vaccuum of the 
Dees-Vanderboegh Two Times. Declare somebody in the militia movement 
a Nazi and you can declare open season on them in this country. But 
thanks to the D-V2T, the gubbnmint can get the militia movement to turn 
in their own, once demonized.

   Now normally, a former professing X-Communist would have a hard time 
infiltrating an organization of what really are men and women of the 
right.  But such are the internal weaknesses of the open militia 
movement that agents provacateur and useful egotistical idiots can 
slip right on in and have a field day.  There is and there has been no 
radar available to detect such.  Let me review some past internal 
security lapses that I have seen first hand.

*   Back in May, 1995, I was asked by two very crazy women to turn 
    myself in to the FBI as John Doe #2.  I politely refused, even 
    in the face of what they thought was a very compelling conspiracy 
    theory. I later find out that I was the second person and first 
    male they asked.
    Three weeks later, they show up to the Wichita Common-Law Grand 
    Jury and the most crazy of the two worms her way into being declared
    Court Reporter on the basis of her "militia credentials." She had 
    infiltrated a fax network and was in charge of a conference call 
    network. Me and a gentleman who knew her very well tried to warn 
    the grand jurors and I threatened the woman with exposure if she 
    persisted in infiltration.  But none of those grand jurors would 
    listen, until after a day of putting up with her incompetence and 
    obstructionism.  Then they were more willing to listen and they 
    got rid of her in favor of somebody from Kansas.  As it was, I 
    got myself appointed as a bailiff in order to keep an eye on her 
    and to buttonhole every neutral juror with the info, but it wasn't 
    until she and her friend self-destructed the second day that I was 
    able to get anyone to listen.
   
    This matter taught me critical weaknesses of an American Resistance 
Movement are the modern Amerikan's willingness to take anyone's word 
for what they are without skepticism, a willingness to listen to 
"experts" as opposed to thinking for themselves, an inability to set 
up simple precautions to ensure secure systems as opposed to sheer 
dumb luck hoping that they will somehow muddle through.

*   Another time in November 1995, I went with a friend to Kansas City 
    to meet with the Missouri 51st Militia over the Laura Kuriatnyk 
    situation.  It isn't until I am in the car and too far to walk 
    back home that I am informed that no, we will not be visiting 
    the 51st Militia, but no! instead we will visit Pam Beesley's 
    militia. 
    There I get to meet Colonel John Parsons and some militia general 
    from Texas.  Parsons gives a 45 minute rant as to how the FBI is 
    a 'constitutional' agency, not all bad, and how the major media 
    didn't give him enough coverage for his narking out Crazy Willie 
    Lampley as an alleged mad bomber. Plus a whole lot more idiotic 
    notions.  I sit there and I suppose I seem ready to explode. 
    Afterwards, I grill the Texas militia general, his supposed 
    superior, as to whether the Tri-States Militia organization really 
    believed that nonsense spouted off by Parsons.
    Later on I hear that Parsons took money from the FBI and Beesley 
    abandoned her daughters and husband to run off with Parsons. 
    Other than the husband, I don't know of anyone who benefited 
    from that deal.

*   I'm at the Gadsden Minuteman Rally in May of 1996, and am setting 
    next to someone prominent in the militia movement and talking about 
    militia topics one night.  Then the word comes that none other than 
    Mike Vanderboegh is at the gate and Jeff Randall is wondering 
    whether to let him on the property.
    "I sure hope Jeff keeps him down at the gate," the militia person 
    says. 
    "How come?" I ask.
    "Because he is such an asshole that if he is let up here he will 
    immediately start a fight."
    Well, they gets their wish. I don't get to see Mike Vanderboegh in 
    person.  The next day, this person is showing me their Christian 
    Identity Phineas Priesthood hardbound book with several hundred 
    pages. I immediately start counting noses and figure out that the 
    CI, White Nationalists and Freemen types made up over a third to 
    40 percent of the attendees.

    This incident set me to thinking about the true numbers of CI and 
White Nationalist leaders and their part in Resistance movement. The 
other incidents set me to thinking about the future of the so-called 
Constitutional militia movement, their survivability and their 
activities -- or the lack of such.  Other elements that occurred 
since the high-water mark for the open Constitutional militia 
movement, already in decline though we did not know it then, have 
strengthened my conclusions that the CI and White Nationalist 
Resistance cells have their place in our Patriot Coalition as well.

   In Modern Militiaman #5, I set out my line of reasoning for the 
'Constitutional Militias' to recognize the legitimacy of the 
Christian Identity and White Nationalist Resistance organizations, 
and vice versa.  Not as part of a plan to bring all groups together 
collectivised under one fueher or great leader, but as part of a 
call for toleration and to prevent any civil war arising between 
such organizations after the current regime collapses and brings 
down the civilization with it. I suspected that the open public 
militias had less military power to bring to the table, but the 
greater amount of public opinion. I had no actual operation to 
set in motion to accomplish my suggestion, as how can one set up 
asking people to tolerate and respect the rights of others if they 
don't have such inherent qualities to call upon themselves?
   I knew full well that my proposal would be attacked by petulant 
egotists on both sides; tawdry militia generals who would fear losing 
contol over their 4 or 5 militiamen or fear losing prestige and 
support for their views.  I was not wrong on either count. I was 
attacked by a revisionist historian on the White Nationalist side. 
I have of course been attacked by a number of militia generals 
on the 'Constitutional militia' side. However, these pinpricks 
from pricks do not matter: I feel that my message hit home to 
what I call the people who matter and that these people of quality 
are mulling the issue over. The Resistance is growing, and it 
is as it should be that even I do not know their location.
   A side issue concerns some very silly and idiotic people who 
cannot get over their indoctrination inserted into them by the 
current regime's propaganda machine.  They read what I write and 
use that opportunity to engage their always-present 
self-righteousness generators. I make no bones about how we are 
in a war and how the Resistance has so far bourne all the casualties.
How we must prosecute this current war to destroy absolutely those 
who would destroy our weakened civilization. Such a policy will 
involve the deaths of those who would kill us in order to advance 
their course to a new Dark Age for mankind. I have no problem 
with doing that which must be done for our survival and I have no 
patience with the weak sisters and their self-righteous vapors. 
Get your ass out of the road and get to the rear or you will be 
caught in a cross-fire between good and evil.
 

   The top story of the militia movement in the past year is the 
dissolution of the open, Constitutional militia movement in favor of 
underground cells, leaving militia generals like Vanderboegh without 
much of a command.  This must be hell for a self-absorbed foolish 
egotist, especially when he is the only socialist (Ok, Ok, 
X-socialist) in the entire movement. What is Vanderboegh going to 
do, who is he going to give orders to, with a Movement which has 
gone underground, beyond his vilification?  

   Let him stay with his "regiment."  Let him run them around. The 
purpose of this set of articles is to make sure he is identified 
and quarantined from carrying out any further mischief with the 
people who matter in the modern Resistance movement.

Part Three:

    On The Record with The Dees-Vanderboegh Two-Times

.

.

A Modern Militiaman Examines "The Dees-Vanderboegh Two-Times"

Part 3A

Time sent: 4:18 pm 7/18/97


On The Record with The Dees-Vanderboegh Two-Times: A Record of Evasions, 
   Half-Truths and Outright Lies.

   
    Now the record of Vanderboegh's ravings considering myself was over 
20K, and untying that knot of of evasions, half-truths, and outright lies 
would be like plumbing a cesspool.  So I will just cut the knot to 
reveal the more glaring of the lies.
   Of course it is to be expected that I am of course a Nazi. It is the 
term which the left always attaches first thing to any opposition 
it might face.  So Vanderboegh, the X-socialist could be expected to 
do exactly that when regarding myself. I slipped my publik skule 
indoctrination, I dare think for myself and not hate the same people 
he hates. So his fury is quite real. To him I am indeed a Nazi.  

>Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 09:50:53 -0400 (EDT)
From: Mo10Cav@aol.com
To: Mo10Cav@aol.com
Subject: Martin Lindstedt: 

John Doe Times Editorial Correspondence
For The Record
14 July 1997
>Martin Lindstedt:  PR Flack for Nazis and "Modern Collectivist Militiaman."
   
   Looking at above message, one can see it was deemed a good move 
for the brave Nazi-Hunter to not address his missive concerning myself 
directly to me.

   But he calls me a "Modern Collectivist Militiaman."  Doubtless the 
pore sneaking rascal has been called a "collectivist" because of his 
X-Communist ways, but I wonder how, if he has any regard for the truth, 
he can apply it to me.
   If he read my "Modern Militiaman" e-zine, he should know that I have
advocated a doctrine of "Leaderless Resistance" which is the exact 
opposite of collectivization of militia units.  Small, hard to 
infiltrate 3-5 man cells of ideologues fighting the current regime. 
(Some of whom even I might agree are Nazis if I knew of their existance.)
   So why does pore Vanderboegh call me a collectivist? I think it 
has gone beyond the customary terms of endearment for his Nazis-on-
the-brain mentality to where it is a character problem: Vanderboegh 
is a liar.


>    Martin Lindstedt, bane of the Missouri Libertarian Party and 
erstwhile editor of "The Modern Militiaman", has long been an 
apologist for neo-Nazi and Christian Identity Phineas Priests 
as our "most committed" allies in the struggle against unconstitutional 
>government.  

   You see, Vanderboegh can read someone else's WWW page when he wants 
to dig up dirt on what they are supposed to have said.  Yes, of course 
I have been a scourge to the Missouri Libertarian Party.  I have been 
castigating them for behavior pretty much like that of Vanderboegh. 
Since I do my best to make the world uncomfortable for liars and 
phonies, yes, I suppose I could indeed be called "the bane" of the 
MoLP and of Vanderboegh too, for that matter.
   Strip off the last phrase, and the sentence above concerning myself 
would not be out of place on Moreass the Sleezester's Klanwatch or 
Docturd Mark Pitsavages' Militia Lapdog WWW pages.

>  Lindstedt sings a siren song, seductive to the ear of some in the 
Constitutional militia movement who long for allies, any ally, in 
the coming fight.  Those familiar with my work know that I have 
long warned against adopting the attitude of "the enemy of my
enemy is my friend."  Anyone who has read The Turner Diaries (or 
studied the history of predecessor collectivists such as the 
German National Socialist Party or the Russian Bolsheviks) 
understands that the punishment for such delusions on the part 
of putative "allies" of neo-Nazis is  becoming merely the last 
group in a long line of Nazi victims.  Instead of "the enemy of 
my enemy is my friend", it would be more fitting to say "with 
>friends like these, who needs enemies?"

   Again, like Pitcavage and the Sleezester, a web of innuendo 
is weaved out of Vanderboegh's bottomless capacity to lie. But we 
are beginning to see the first iteration of the nonsense which 
is the mainstay of Vanberboegh's drivel: 
   The Nazis are not my friends. They are bad people. They disagree 
with my version of socialism. Therefore they can't be your friends 
because I am your friend and they ain't my friend. I don't have too 
many friends. Don't you and them Nazis be friends or I'll be pissed 
and very put out with you.
   Once you understand Vanderboegh's internal dialectic, the rest of 
Vanderboegh's drivel should become clear.  Little 'ol Nazi me proposes 
to break up Vanderboegh's collective, his audience, and leave him 
all alone in the dark with Comrades Moreass the Sleezester and 
Dr. Mark bewailing the doubtless Nazi-inspired revolt of the militia 
lumpenproletariate.
 
>  Mr. Lindstedt apparently asked his question without recognizing 
>in advance that Mr. Harris was one of those "allies" he would 
>have us embrace.  I believe the phrase is:  "hoist upon his own petard."  

   Well, as mentioned before, that night I forgot to dig up the fruit 
jar with the Nazi Party mailing list.  How very foolish of me.

>I present the following correspondence (and my dissecting commentary
thereon) for the edification, amusement and education of all the 
Constitutional Militiamen who read the John Doe Times.
-- Mike Vanderboegh, 1 ACR
>Editor, The John Doe Times

   It's dialectic time.

>*******************************************
In a message dated 97-07-13 16:02:20 EDT, you write:

Subj:	Re: SAFAN NO. 538. Who is Larry Wayne Harris? -OR- The Coming
Holocaust.
Date:	97-07-13 16:02:20 EDT
From:	mlindste@mail.clandjop.com (Martin Lindstedt)
To:	Mo10Cav@aol.com (Mike Vanderboegh)

At 10:33 AM 7/12/97 -0400, you wrote:
In a message dated 97-07-12 09:00:11 EDT, you write:
>
>"Who is Larry Wayne Harris?"
>
>Well, in point of fact, he's one of those "hardcorps" neo-Nazis you're so
>fond of singing the praises of.  Federal rent-a-Nazi, more like.  -- Mike
>Vanderboegh

> (Lindstedt replies:)

    Maybe he is.  Did I not allow how he was a useful idiot for 
 Freeh's Biologicals Inc.?  But why is it such a big deal to 
 you as to the religious and racial views of a rat?
    I have found that a man of the right judges a person by their 
actions and that a man of the left judges people by what they say 
or think.  Therefore Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot are OK while Adolf 
Hitler is the anti-Christ.  You former flower-children never grow 
up, do you?
>**********************************
>MV's response: I am not a "former flower-child".  I am an ex-communist, 
a fact which I have never made any bones of.  "Flower children" smoked 
dope and swapped sexually transmitted diseases along with their 
illusions about peace, love and fuzzy socialism.  The people I hung around 
with (and, indeed, that I was myself) were the ideological twins of the 
neo-Nazis and Phineas Priests: true-believing collectivists who would 
kill you in a heartbeat if the party leader (read commisar or fuhrer, 
>it makes no difference) ordered it.

   Yes, pore Mikey was the not exactly the life of the Party.  
The more things change, the more they remain the same.

>   I have never apologized for communist murderers such as Stalin, 
>Mao or Pol Pot-- at least not since the late Seventies . . .

   Let's get the story right, Mikey. Never apologised for communist 
murderers . . . -- at least not since the late Seventies . . .? 
   Or at least maybe not since last night sometime around 7:30 p.m.?



>. . . when the truth about the killing fields destroyed any illusions 
I had about asian communists (or any others) being little Jeffersonian 
democrats.  The lies and hypocrisy I saw in the communist and socialist 
movements of my youth are the same in neo-Nazi and racial collectivist 
>groups you admire.

   Oh well, the truth has an uncomfortable way of coming out and biting 
you liars.  Maybe you would have had a more fun time and been a little 
bit better human being if you would have drank a little more beer and 
got a little more nookie rather than laying the groundwork for being 
a doctrinnaire Communist.  And like the whore who got religion, why 
must you assume that I am suffering from the same disease you willingly
contracted?

>There is no greater anti-communist than an ex-communist.  You may rank 
me as both, thank you very much.  Indeed for all your self-proclaimed 
"realistic" view of the world, it is somewhat astounding that you 
haven't noticed that Nazis are simply a twisted permutation of the 
>collectivist impulse.  They are no better, or worse, than communists.  

   You still ain't got over imposing your views on others, have you 
Vanderboegh?  The same very traits which you developed in being a 
Communist you use in being an X-Communist.  In your present view, 
anyone who disagrees with you is a Nazi. Well, I refuse to take your 
little mark in return for a marker to name you as you would wish. 
I will not exchange my gold for your slag metal in any exchange of 
views or labels.

   (Here a paragraph or two of the Great Patriotic War's political 
history lesson was deleted.)

>Martin, as someone who was doing clandestine armed political work 
>(albeit for the wrong side) when you were in short britches, . . .

   Yes, yes. Age is a claim for "expertise." Far be it for people 
to think for themselves if they can pay an expert to do it for them.

>I can tell you that I pay attention to both what someone says AND 
what someone does.  "By their works ye shall know them," a preacher 
told me in my youth.  I'm "grown up" enough to recognize the truth 
in that.  I'm curious, though, to know what part of the "works" of 
the Nazis you don't understand?   

   A look at your works was sufficient.  And knowing those works I 
am supposed to take your word on anything?  Need I satisfy your 
rhetorical curiousity?


>>>*************************************************  
>>>    I do not see any point to grouping everyone who may not be as 
>>> advanced in their professed love of blacks, Jews and Hispanics 
>>> as I might be, politically collectivizing them to my right, and 
>>> then thrusting them all beyond the pale as not so good as I am. 
>>> Such an approach, while gratifying to the ego, is rather 
>>> unproductive.  Such reasoning, a staple of Fed and media 'thought,'
>>> should be alien to Patriot thinking.  I know why the Feds and major 
>>> media parrot such a line.  Why do you?
>>>*********************************************
>>>MV: Again, you mistake the "politically correct" ravings of Dees & Co. with
>>>the thrust of my opposition to the neo-Nazis and their "Christian" Ident
>>>allies.  Ego and political correctness have absolutely nothing to do with
>it.

   Is that right?


>>> The enemy of my enemy is not MY friend.  Get it?  Just because Dees 
opposes neo-Nazis for money, does not mean someone who opposes them for 
principle is Dees' friend.  Just because the neo-Nazis mouth 
anti-Administration rhetoric does not make them my friends, either.  
>>>Not by a long shot.

   Tell you what.  Why don't you arrange the partnership of 
The Dees-Vanderboegh Two-Times so that Moreass the Sleezester 
gets all the money and you get all the love?

>>>I don't know what kind of behavior you show to "allies", or you 
>>>expect them to show to you.  My allies are people who I can trust 
>>>not to stab me in the back.  People who I can tie my flank to in 
>>>the sure and certain notion that they will not break and leave me 
>>>high and dry.  People who would tell me the truth, even though I 
>>>might not like to hear it, or it reflects poorly on them.  People 
>>>who I would share the last box of ammo with, and who would do
>>>the same for me.  People I can trust not to get me killed just 
>>>because their "fuhrer" told them it was time to "change policies."

   I was unaware you had any friends in the militia movement.

>>>Most importantly, my allies are people who look at things 
>>>unsentimentally, whose eyes are not clouded by hate or dogma, by 
>>>guided by principle. 
>>>   Constitutional principles they are, without regard of race, 
>>>creed, color or religion.  And I'm sure some of my allies are 
>>>"racist", by definition. So what?  By definition the First Amendment 
>>>gives anyone the right to hate anyone else in this country.  

   And you get down on me for allegedly saying a few nice things about 
Nazis?  What a very confused hypocrite you are, Vanderboegh.

>>>But the point of the rest of the Constitution is to make sure that 
no one group of "haters" gets to exercise undue negative influence 
over another to their detriment.  I don't care if someone has formed 
opinions that I haven't about any other group in the country, as 
long as they adhere to the rules of our Constitutional Republic as 
laid down in the Constitution.  That's why we're called "Constitutional" 
militiamen and women.  (I had to laugh at the hair-splitting, legalese 
in your essay "There ain't no such thing as a Constitutional Militia."  
What part of the concept, "Citizens under arms to enforce their 
>>>Constitutional liberties" don't you understand?)  

   Mike Vanderboegh, Constitutional scholar. Where exactly is the 
Vanderbaugh clause mentioned in the Constitution?  I know the Supremes 
think the Constitution says what they think it says, but I was unaware 
of a clause in it giving you the power to add or detract from it.

   Article 1, Section 8 of the U.S. Constitution says 
    The Congress shall have the power To . . . 
    . . . To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the 
   Militia , and for governing such Part of them as may be employed 
   in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States 
   respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority 
   of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed 
   by Congress.

   So is your little private army recognized by the Congress or the 
state of Alabama?  No?  Then why must you call it a 'Constitutional 
militia' when it really is no such thing? 
   Obviously, you have no respect for the Constitution if it says 
something you disagree with.  But you use that tattered scrap of 
paper to justify anything you want to do, just like the government 
does.

   Nobody has been able to legitimately challenge the basis of 
my article.  Between a third or a fourth of it was directly from 
the Virginia ratifying convention, where Anti-Federalists like 
Patrick Henry and George Mason urged the Virginians to not ratify 
giving up their militias to the U.S. gubbnmint.
      
>>>*********************************************  
>>>    Why are you engaged in the current propaganda war, the current 
>>> kulturkampf, in spreading the notion that the effective 
>>> Resistance = overt racism and thus a threat to the further decay of 
>>> this civilization?  
>>>******************************************
>>>MV: "Kulturkampf"?  My, we are using big Nazi words.  

   Every big German word is a Nazi word?  No grammar existed for the 
German language before 1933?

   You have Nazis on the brain, Vanderboegh.


>There is not a neo-Nazi or Christian Identity group that you can name 
>that I could not name a top-level federal informant in (and oft times 
>their control agent).  This includes some of the biggest names in "der 
>Kampf" including men who have set up supposed unknown-to-the-Feds 
>"leaderless resistance" cells.

   OK, I note your friendliness with the feds.  You and Moreass the 
Sleezester are have access to the gubbnmint's enemies list. I sure 
hope my name is on it.

>>> What a joke!  I do not sell the concept short.  Indeed, I spent 
three years of clandestine organizing in the Constitutional militia 
>>>movement before I was "outed" by a careless contact.  

   OK, I'll grant that you are incompetent to run a Resistance cell.

>But the neoNazi movement, it's mailing lists, it's phone conversations 
>and it's leaders have all been for sale for the last 30 or 40 years.  
>Dennis Mahon once told me in a phone conversation that there wasn't a 
>man or woman in his "Movement" (which I hope you understand is not
>the same as mine) that wouldn't sit at home and do nothing if the 
>Feds paid them $20,000 a year.  And you want to make people like this 
>your allies?  

   Sounds to me like I'd rise pretty far pretty fast in the Nazi 
movement if their leadership is stupid enough to talk to you. 
Sounds to me like they are suffering from ineffective leadership. 
So I'll continue to fight for the fun of it and have them pay me 
off in heads when we win.



.

.

A Modern Militiaman Examines "The Dees-Vanderboegh Two-Times"

Part 3B

Time sent: 4:18 pm 7/18/97


On The Record with The Dees-Vanderboegh Two-Times: A Record of Evasions, 
   Half-Truths and Outright Lies.


>>******************************************
>>You are of sufficient age to recollect that 
>> thirty years ago in your area of the country that segregation was 
>> a patriotic given. Perhaps the people who you claim to be Neo-Nazis 
>> now would have fit in quite well in the South 30 years ago without 
>> feeling a need for the more extreme political baggage they carry now. 
>> Thirty years ago perhaps it was you who were the socialist, and 
>> alien to your section's customs and mores.  In which case would it not 
>> have been better for you to have gone to work in a Yankee newspaper 
>> writing forced-integrationist drivel and otherwise openly pissing on 
>> the graves of your Confederate great grand-sires?
>> *********************************************
>>MV: Uh, a couple of points here.   First, the Klan of the Fifties and
Sixties had no truck with neoNazis.  Couldn't stand 'em.  Why?  Well, 
they might have been racists, but most of them (or their brothers or 
cousins) had been to Europe in World War II and had no love for the 
>swastika. They had seen it's fruit first hand.  

   Yes, and it is thanks to your lying tongue and that of your ally 
Morris the Sleezester that modern-day Kluckers have become affiliated 
with the Nazis.  Perhaps not at all, other than in you and the 
Sleezester's wishful imagination.

>>Also, again you are making the argument that terrorism and
>>terrorists = effective political resistance.  

   Now where did you get that argument that I allegedly said? You 
just made it up, didn't you? That's what you do with anyone that 
disagrees with you.  You put your own words in their mouth and 
then attack them for what you said they said. It's a rather 
contemptible trick of long usage with you and your fellow 
leftists, isn't it?

>In fact it was the church bombings and assassinations which broke 
the back of the state's rights movement, although most of its 
adherents were opposed to terrorism as practiced by the FBI-
controlled Ku Klux Klan.  Do you think that's some kind
of accident?  Do you think that by allying yourself with
federally-controlled terrorists today that you serve the cause 
>of liberty any better than what happened in the Sixties?  

   You seem to be on better speaking terms with the federals, and
the federally-controlled terrorists than I am.  I don't speak to 
FBI plants or agents provacateur.  In fact, I advocate a policy 
of decentralization for the Resistance movement. If those cells 
were to engage themselves in what you, the Feds, and Morris the 
Sleezester call a 'terroristic' activity, then I would might indeed 
either condone or keep silent concerning it.

>Absent the terrorism (which dominated the headlines, fed right into 
>the Northerner's preconceptions if not prejudice about the South and 
broke the back of the legal resistance to federal power), the state's 
righters might have had a chance to make their case (or at least
give their political leaders a chance to use the doctrine of 
interposition effectively).  Identified in the public mind with 
terrorists, they could not make the political and legal points 
necessary to win their case.  I happen to believe that enforced legal 
discrimination was a bad cause to put the Tenth Amendment to, but 
the fact is that any chance to preserve the right of the states to 
deal with their own affairs was destroyed by the federally-controlled 
>>terrorists.  See any parallels?

   You concede way too much ground to the feds by default. They 
run the Klan. The Klan runs wild. This lets the feds increase their 
power over the states "legally".  
   When all this happened, by prior admission, you were an open 
Communist, not a X-Communist. You thought it was just fine. No 
wonder you are such a fixture in the FBI-Klan axis.

>>Second, they ain't necessarily MY "Confederate great grand-sires," 
>>although that doesn't mean I don't honor their sacrifice.  I came 
>>to Alabama in 1985. By virtue of my sterling personality and 
>>spiritual growth, I hope to attain an official Southern green card 
>>in another couple of years.  I was born in Michigan, shanghaied at 
>>an early age and raised in Ohio amongst the "heathen Buckeye".  Most 
>>of my "great grand-sires" wore the blue, although there was
>>(we think) at least one of our folk on my mother's side of the 
>>line who fought for the Confederacy. 

   OK, OK, my mistake.  You are a carpetbagger instead of a 
scalawag.

>>This apparently does not alienate the numbers of native Alabamians 
who support my leadership of the 1st Alabama Cavalry Regiment 
>>(Constitutional Militia).  

   Let's see. It is neither the "First" nor an "Alabama" nor a "Calvary" 
nor a "Regiment" nor a "Constitutional Militia."  First presupposes the 
existence of a "Second." It is not a militia recognized or officered by 
the State of Alabama. I doubt you have any war horses. Nor do you have 
a regimental-sized unit, although you might muster up a half squad. 
And we have already covered how you are not a Constitutional Militia. 
   But if some fools want to make you a militia general over whatever 
it is, then it is fine by me.

>>It may be because I enunciate principles they believe in.  It may be 
because they trust me not do anything that will get them killed without 
purpose or principle.  It may be because no one else was stupid enough 
>>to take the job.  

   Bingo.

>But there it is.  In any case, I piss on no one's grave, save Hitler's 
and Stalin's, and a few of their collectist buddies now merrily 
blazing in hell.  And I promise you this, I'll piss on Timothy 
McVeigh's grave and that of every federally-sanctioned neo-Nazi 
and christian Identity terrorist who killed those 168 people in 
>Oklahoma City the moment they're in the ground.  

   See how quickly federal activity in this matter is forgotten. 
Timothy McVeigh and Nazis are solely responsible for 168 deaths. 
You forgot your ticket to the militia movement, Vanderboegh. 
Attach it to your neck if you are going to lose it. Stop putting 
all the blame on your Nazis and put more on the feds.
   Doesn't any of them fed Okies wish you would stop exploiting them
Vanderboegh. 

>And if you rank yourself as their friend and ally and kill some 
>innocents yourself, I'll piss on yours as well.  

   Since you have all the characteristics of a dog save fidelity, 
perhaps you had best learn to keep some urine in reserve.

>>*********************************************  
>>    The White Nationalist and Christian Identity movements have been 
>> hurt as a result of the rapscallions you document betraying them and
>> selling them out.  For a full decade at least they have borne the 
>> brunt of the Resistance and taken the casualties long before the 
>> middle-class suburban militia general tried their hand at the game of
>> playing at revolution.
>>****************************************
>>MV: "Rapscallions"?  Sounds like you need to take a job of neoNazi 
>>Counter Intelligence Officer instead of impersonating a liberty-loving 
>>militiaman.

    You were asking a question?  Yes, as a matter of fact I still 
beat my wife.

>>****************************************  
>>    Frankly, the militia generals, with their incessant declarations 
>> and screetching of love for everyone, have been a considerable 
>> disappointment for anyone wanting to get anything serious accomplished.
>>****************************************
>>MV:  a. I ain't a general, never claimed to be.

   Well you do claim to be the CO of the "First" "Alabama" "Cavalry" 
"Regiment."  A regiment's Table of Organization and Equipment calls 
for a brigadier or major general because a regiment is larger than 
a brigade but smaller than a division.
   Of course if you went by the actual TO&E, you would be a militia 
corporal.
   But as even you could have guessed, I use the term 'militia general'
as pejoritive one to denote meglomaniacs leading small bands of open 
easily infiltrated, ineffective 'Constitutional militiamen.' 
   You might have forgotten, but you used much the same logic in your 
attack on the hapless militia generals of the U.S. Theatre Command. 
But consistency and honor are not your strong suits, are they 
Vanderboegh.

>> b. I don't "love" everyone, but I see the two "declarations" that 
>>I've had occasion to author (and that thousands of Constitutional 
>>militia folk signed onto) as a good way to delineate the ground 
>>you will fight for, and why.  

   Yes, I remember your gas-bag "declarations."  They consisted in 
stripping everyone you considered not as good as you to political 
perdition.  I found them self-indulgent and foolish. So no, I did 
not sign them.  


>> c. As far as being a "disappointment" to folks "wanting to get 
>>anything serious accomplished." 

   What have you accomplished, except the vilification of everyone 
who won't kiss your ass?  You plagarize major press reports and 
interspace them with your petty hatreds of others.  You report on 
Federal informants and then put the emphasis on the informant's 
and provacateur's activities and downplay the gubbnmint's. 
   When it comes down to it you act more like an agent provacateur 
and gubbnmint provacateur.  That's why I call your rag The 
Dees-Vanderboegh Two Times.  For all practical purposes, that is 
exactly what it is.


>> What serious things did you have in mind to accomplish?  More OKCs?  
>>You want to validate the federal police state, perhaps?  Or do you 
>>want to skip the Turner Diaries-like repression and go straight to 
>>the Day of the Rope?
>> Is Rahowa (racial holy war) what really floats your boat?  
>>
>>The key thing here is, what do YOU want to accomplish, Mr. Lindstedt?  
>>I have drawn few conclusions about you from your previous writings 
>>save this:

   So you are hard pressed to show what you have ever done that amounts 
to getting anything serious accomplished.  Having nothing to show for 
it, you immediately go back to vilifying others to conceal your own 
shortcomings. You accuse me of a whole bunch of things which 'float 
your boat" and then dishonestly claim you "have drawn few conclusions 
about [me] from [my] previous writings. You obviously have no 
appreciation for honor or the truth save as a rat appreciates a rat 
trap.

>>
>>You once wrote, in reference to OKC and other terrorist actions that 
>>"There are no innocents".  The babies in that daycare weren't 
>>innocents, Mr. Lindstedt?  The people who visited the federal 
>>building, or even the non-law enforcement federal employees weren't 
>>innocents, Mr. Lindstedt?  What is there about an Agriculture 
>>Department employee, that by virtue of the job alone, requires his 
>>or her death?  The very concept that there ARE innocents in war, that 
>>there are laws of land warfare that must be respected by belligerents 
>>including the refraining from attacks on innocent civilians is
>>what separates civilized armies from butchering barbaric hordes.  The 
>>moment you believe, as you apparently do, Mr. Lindstedt, that there 
>>are no innocents-- at that moment you become a barbarian.   Do you 
>>shoot helpless prisoners, too, Mr. Lindstedt?  Rape female POWs?  Or 
>>is killing babies with precisely targeted bombs the end of your own 
>>catalog of personally-allowable atrocities?
>>
>>If I am a "disappointment" to terrorists and barbarians, Mr. Lindstedt, I
>>proudly wear the title. 

   I will answer the more honest of your allegations at a later period. 
Some of them are valid questions, and the truth should come out by 
exactly what I mean by the phrase "There are no innocents." I  
admit that I can and probably will indeed have to exercise the hard 
and ruthless side of my nature to effectively win the coming Great 
Civil War.
   However, most of above laundry list of atrocities are probably 
what you would do if you were placed in a position of authority.
I have not detected any honorable or decent streak in your nature, 
Vanderboegh.
 
>>************************************************* 
>>
>>   I asked you before, and still ask you now for a serious debate on 
>> recognizing the Christian Identity, White Nationalist, and even Neo-Nazi 
>> place in the overall Resistance movement.  You have refused. Which is 
>> of course your right and is irrelevant in any case.  Your refusal to 
>> raise your views in any open forum means merely that by default these 
>> people will take over the vanguard, as they have already.  You are 
>> presently cooly viewed as a militia-general collaborator with Morris 
>> Dees -- a scalawag narking out your kin for the benefit of federal 
>> carpetbaggers.
>>*****************************************
>>MV: I guess I should have responded to you before this, but I've been a
>>little busy "narking out" (as you say) for the Constitutional militias 
>>your federal-terrorist partners.  Not for Morris Dees, who by the way 
>>never lists a federal operation in his literature unless it's to assist 
>>his federal overseers in one way or another.  (Check for pre-bombing 
>>mentions of Elohim City in Klanwatch.  A classic case of "the dog who 
>>didn't bark.")  Morris does not count me as a friend.  I am in fact 
>>one of his worst enemies, and have done more than most to expose him.  
>>Deeswatch, my first on-line effort, has sent hundreds of pounds of 
>>Dees-related material via FedEx to people who have been slandered by 
>>him and are suing him (or considering same) all over the country.

   I'm quite sure that you have been indeed narking out somebody for 
your own benefit.

   As regarding you and Morris the Sleezester, yes, you have had a 
number of lover's quarrels. But that's all they are. Strip you of 
your waving around your price of admission to the militia movement, 
the federal paymasters and then downplaying federal involvement to 
blame Nazis, and you are a Morris the Sleezester klone. Nothing 
more. Nothing less.
  
>>I guess you may consider this my "serious debate" response.  I look 
>>forward to more of your defense of the indefensible.  It is amusing 
>>if nothing else, and very revealing to exactly the people you hope 
>>to convert to your line of thinking.

   Invective is indeed your only debating skill. Logic and reason are 
beyond your ken.   

>>
>>As far as "federal carpetbaggers", I must confess that I have had 
>>limited personal experience with the type, almost all of whom are 
>>reputed neoNazis and Christian Identity FBI assets, who coincidentally, 
>>you spend an awful lot of time defending. 

   More guilt by association. Sure you are really an eX-socialist?

 
>>*********************************************
>>  
>>    You do not understand and cannot understand the people you write 
>> about because you have no empathy for them. That which you do write 
>> about the traitors and informants within our midst does not detract 
>> from our views and it adds to our unit security.  So yes, even you 
>> serve a purpose. We listen to you, although you are not viewed with 
>> any affection or respect. They understand you very well.
>>
>>-- Martin Lindstedt.
>>
>>****************************************
>>MV: Well, I guess I can rest easy now that I know I "serve a purpose".  The
>>"within our midst" quote I guess means that you have dropped all 
>>pretense and identify yourself with the neoNazis, et al.  I'm glad 
>>I've been able to help you come to this self-knowledge, grass-hopper.  
>>Of course, I guess I knew it all along, but it's nice to know for the 
>>wider audience.  I seek neither affection nor respect from the 
>>Clintonistas and their neo-Nazi terrorist allies.  

   Anyone who disagrees with you is a Nazi.  That is the sole sum of 
your contribution to the Movement.

>>
>>You're quite wrong you know.  While it is true I have no empathy for 
>>your buddies, I understand them all too well.  So do 168 Oklahomans I 
>>could name. 
>>

   I have no idea as to why they would need burial, with a moral vulture 
like you ready to gobble them down for your own self-advancement. You 
will never stop exploiting their deaths for your own purposes, just like 
Clinton, and Dees.  Three buzzards sitting on the same limb, in communion,
with the ground below stained with the dung from a feast of their victims.

--Martin Lindstedt,
Editor, The Modern Militiaman.

 
>>--Mike Vanderboegh, 1 ACR
>>Editor, The John Doe Times 

.

.

Hate Mail From Red Mike's Gruppenschiessenkopfenfuerhers

Time Sent: 6:43 a.m. 7/19/97


Return-Path: (tdarby@bham.net)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:01:16 -0500
X-Sender: tdarby@bham.net
To: mlindste@clandjop.com (Martin Lindstedt)
From: Ted (tdarby@bham.net)
Subject: Re: A Modern Militiaman Examines "The Dees-Vanderboegh Two
  Times"  Part 2

nazis are the scum that needs to be flushed....

At 04:16 PM 7/18/97 +0100, you wrote:
>    A Modern Militiaman Examines "The Dees-Vanderboegh Two-Times" Part 2
>
>   In a Part 1, I used humor to highlight Vanderboegh's pretentions 
>as to the factual basis for his John Doe II Times.  Now I will 
>attempt to bring reason to bear.  An ability to reason is in short suppy 
>in the militia general community, and Vanderboegh is certainly no 
>exception to that general rule.
(snip)
-------------------------------------------------------------------------

Return-Path: (tdarby@bham.net)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:01:29 -0500
X-Sender: tdarby@bham.net
To: mlindste@clandjop.com (Martin Lindstedt)
From: Ted (tdarby@bham.net)
Subject: Re: A Modern Militiaman Examines The Dees-Vanderboegh
  Two-Times,  Part 3A

baby killing bastard......ie. nazi

At 04:17 PM 7/18/97 +0100, you wrote:
>   On The Record with The Dees-Vanderboegh Two-Times: A Record of Evasions, 
>   Half-Truths and Outright Lies.
>
>   
>    Now the record of Vanderboegh's ravings considering myself was over 
>20K, and untying that knot of of evasions, half-truths, and outright lies 
>would be like plumbing a cesspool.  So I will just cut the knot to 
>reveal the more glaring of the lies.
>   Of course it is to be expected that I am of course a Nazi. It is the 
>term which the left always attaches first thing to any opposition 
>it might face.  So Vanderboegh, the X-socialist could be expected to 
>do exactly that when regarding myself. I slipped my publik skule 
>indoctrination, I dare think for myself and not hate the same people 
>he hates. So his fury is quite real. To him I am indeed a Nazi.  
>
(snip)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Return-Path: (tdarby@bham.net)
Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:01:42 -0500
X-Sender: tdarby@bham.net
To: mlindste@clandjop.com (Martin Lindstedt)
From: Ted (tdarby@bham.net)
Subject: Re: A Modern Militiaman Examines "The Dees-Vanderboegh Two
  Times"  Part 3B

hurts when you lose face and can't pretend to be something that you never
will be....nazi bastard

At 04:17 PM 7/18/97 +0100, you wrote:
>On The Record with The Dees-Vanderboegh Two-Times: A Record of Evasions, 
>   Half-Truths and Outright Lies.
>
>
>>>******************************************
>>>You are of sufficient age to recollect that 
>>> thirty years ago in your area of the country that segregation was 
>>> a patriotic given. Perhaps the people who you claim to be Neo-Nazis 
>>> now would have fit in quite well in the South 30 years ago without 
>>> feeling a need for the more extreme political baggage they carry now. 
>>> Thirty years ago perhaps it was you who were the socialist, and 
>>> alien to your section's customs and mores.  In which case would it not 
>>> have been better for you to have gone to work in a Yankee newspaper 
>>> writing forced-integrationist drivel and otherwise openly pissing on 
>>> the graves of your Confederate great grand-sires?
>>> *********************************************
>>>MV: Uh, a couple of points here.   First, the Klan of the Fifties and
>Sixties had no truck with neoNazis.  Couldn't stand 'em.  Why?  Well, 
>they might have been racists, but most of them (or their brothers or 
>cousins) had been to Europe in World War II and had no love for the 
>>swastika. They had seen it's fruit first hand.  
>
>   Yes, and it is thanks to your lying tongue and that of your ally 
>Morris the Sleezester that modern-day Kluckers have become affiliated 
>with the Nazis.  Perhaps not at all, other than in you and the 
>Sleezester's wishful imagination.

(snip)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mr. Darby:

   I would like to pay homage for you sticking by your friend.  
It is a good thing that Mr. Vanderboegh has friends who will stick 
by him when times get rough. Your messages above confirm that I 
have indeed hurt Mr. Vanderboegh's standing in the militia movement. 
I will not deny that I planned this course of action, nor that I 
intend to finish Mr. Vanderboegh off as a force on the left to be 
reckoned with in the Constitutional militia movement.  But I hope 
that if ever my enemies get me in a similar position that I will 
have good friends like yourself with Mr. Vanderboegh to support me 
-- right or wrong.

   I hope you will believe me when I say I have nothing personal 
against Mr. Vanderboegh.  Let me tell you why I pursued this 
course of action, suckering Mr. Vanderboegh into acting like 
himself:

   1. As proved by our exchange of letters, and by his previous 
writings, Mr. Vanderboegh is not an ex-communist.  He retains 
all the characteristics and symptoms of his former condition. 
While he is in a state of denial concerning this matter, it is 
self-evident that he has in no way changed from being a communist. 
He will have to re-educate himself, and there are no chapters nor 
12-step programme for Communists Anonymous. I hope that both you 
and him will seek treatment together.

   2. He just wouldn't stop fighting with the other militia generals 
and bullying and tormenting people verbally and intellectually 
smaller than him, or more honest about their ideology. So I had 
to pull one fang, remove his spray glands, declaw him, and remove 
one testicle.  But I did leave him his cunning little black coat 
with the white stripe down the tail.
   But seriously: He does not really have any true ideological 
allies in a movement populated by the right.  He has called 
everybody in the Movement who disagreed with him a Nazi and 
either ignored or vilified the underground current of the 
Resistance movement.  What I pointed out about him will not 
only be recieved and repeated with joy and delight among the 
people who he has hurt, a few of whom really are Nazis but most 
of whom are not, but among the cooler heads of the Resistance 
movement as well. It is because of Mr. Vanderboegh's reckless 
misconduct that I will not have to call in very many, if any, 
markers due.

3.  The circumstantial evidence available points out to Mr. 
Vanderboegh's probably being an agent provacateur and government 
informant.  Anyone who is aware of his boastful nature about how 
he knows "Nazi informants" and how they call him up on the 
telephone and chat, should wonder what, if anything, compels them 
to do so. But this is simple logic.  Running through Vanderboegh's 
massive output of newsletters, venomous e-mail, and rationalizations, 
plus some information he has foolishly let slip, should be enough 
to show the unwary to steer clear of him.  I do not have evidence 
as to whether he is paid or whether he does this for ideological 
reasons or a mixture of both. 
   I do not have proof beyond a shadow of a doubt as to this 
accusation.  Only by being foolish enough to admit this, like 
Parsons and Adams, can this matter be proven beyond a shadow of a 
doubt, and Mr. Vanderboegh is much too intelligent to do this. 
   I realize that raising this reasonable doubt will destroy what is 
left of Mr. Vanderboegh's standing in the militia community.  By 
raising this accusation, I take upon myself a serious moral burden and 
risk my own credibility. Also, I hereby set the burden of proof to Mr. 
Vanderboegh's own level of previous conduct: having levelled the 
accusation, even though supported by some proof, it is up to Mr. 
Vanderboegh to prove a negative by proving himself innocent of 
this charge I have raised.  If Mr. Vanderboegh wishes to to sue me 
in a gubbnmint court, then I will use my knowledge of the law to 
counter-sue and crush him.  He does not bring clean hands to any 
court of law.
   If I am proven wrong, all Mr. Vanderboegh will receive from 
me will be an apology.  To someone other than Mr. Vanderboegh, 
I would offer one of my rifles and half my ammunition 
up to 500 rounds boot in addition to the apology. But this is the 
firat time I have ever had to make this type of accusation, and 
Mr. Vanderboegh has never offered one red cent nor apology to any 
of all those he has slandered or borne false witness against. 

                  ----------------------------

   Mr. Vanderboegh has provided a service to the Resistance movement 
by copying the press accounts of the major media concerning the Feds 
amd their army of informants, agents provacateur, and state-sponsored 
terrorists.  However, he has also done the Resistance movement great 
harm by his disruption of Resistance lines of communication by setting 
people at each other's throats and by his aiding and assisting  
government counter-Resistance forces.

   I hope, Mr. Darby, with your helping Mr. Vanderboegh, that Mr. 
Vanderboegh will come clean and really change for the better. I hope,
that when that change happens, if it happens, that you and Mr. 
Vanderboegh will use your natural talents to regain rightful positions 
of responsibility, although never again of trust.  I am, 


Most Sincerely yours,

Martin Lindstedt

----------~~~~~----------

The Content of Their Character . . .


Return-Path: (tdarby@bham.net)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 10:06:37 -0500
X-Sender: tdarby@bham.net
To: mlindste@clandjop.com (Martin Lindstedt)
From: Ted (tdarby@bham.net)
Subject: Re: Your friend, Mike Vanderboegh

>nazis are the scum that needs to be flushed....
>
>baby killing bastard......ie. nazi
>
>hurts when you lose face and can't pretend to be something that you never
>will be....nazi bastard
>
>
>   I hope, Mr. Darby, with your helping Mr. Vanderboegh, that Mr. 
>Vanderboegh will come clean and really change for the better. I hope,
>that when that change happens, if it happens, that you and Mr. 
>Vanderboegh will use your natural talents to regain rightful positions 
>of responsibility, although never again of trust.  I am, 

Go do us all a favor and suck on a shot gun...you have been exposed for 
what you are and that is pure nazi filth...your day is done...

                        ----------------------------

   I would say that it is you and Mr. Vanderboegh who have been exposed 
for what you are.

   Thank you for your assistance in this matter.

--Martin Lindstedt

----------~~~~~----------

One Blind Rat,
One Blind Rat,
See How He Runs,
See how He Runs!

.


Return-Path: (AHABIZ@aol.com)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 11:49:43 -0400 (EDT)
From: AHABIZ@aol.com
To: mlindste@clandjop.com, Mo10Cav@aol.com
cc: 
Subject: Re: A Modern Militiaman Examines "The Dees-Vanderboegh Two Times" Part 3B

In a message dated 97-07-19 00:52:21 EDT, mlindste@clandjop.com (Martin
Lindstedt) writes:

> On The Record with The Dees

uh, Martin, you've already given yourself away as a nazi, now would you
kindly drop me from your email list, as I give absolutely no creedance to
anything you say.

Arlin H. Adams

                   ----------------------------------

Return-Path: (AHABIZ@aol.com)
Date: Sat, 19 Jul 1997 11:56:16 -0400 (EDT)
From: AHABIZ@aol.com
To: mlindste@clandjop.com
cc: Mo10Cav@aol.com
Subject: All further email from your address will be deleted without 
         being read

I recommend everyone else being subject to this nonsense do the same

                  --------------------------------------

Reply Date: 2:37 am 7/20/97

At 11:49 AM 7/19/97 -0400, you wrote:
>In a message dated 97-07-19 00:52:21 EDT, mlindste@clandjop.com (Martin
>Lindstedt) writes:
>
>> On The Record with The Dees
>
>uh, Martin, you've already given yourself away as a nazi, now would you
>kindly drop me from your email list, as I give absolutely no creedance to
>anything you say.
>
>Arlin H. Adams
>

   Mr. Adams, I do not know you, and chances are that is just as well. 
Vanderboegh when he was riding high attached your name cc: to the 
e-mailing list and I saw fit to let you watch him drop. You didn't 
seem to have no problem watching Vanderboegh at work before, but 
now you have a cow when he gets a little of his own back.

   You seem determined to judge me a Nazi because Vanderboegh 
said I was one.  I consider it a good thing that people like 
yourself show some solidarity and stick together in places where 
you cannot harm other people.  I consider it a good thing that 
you people are largely ineffective, segregated within your own 
little hate group. I consider it an honor for me to do my part 
to insure your segregation from the rest of the Resistance 
movement.

   Your name will be dropped from the list if you will not send 
another message back to me.  It might be added back if I see 
Vanderboegh including your name again in the cc: headers and you 
not making the effort to disassociate your name from this idiot. 
If Vanderboegh is going to remain an informant, then he might as 
well learn a little communications discipline and learn to send 
his messages to useful idiots blind carbon copy (bcc:), which is 
one of the functions of AOL e-mail.


>Subject: All further email from your address will be deleted without 
being read

>I recommend everyone else being subject to this nonsense do the same

   No problem. As mentioned before, you were never on my e-mail address
book. If you wish not to see public ridicule coming first hand, that is 
fine by me. In case you haven't noticed, I have a tendency to not 
turn loose of a matter when brought to my attention until it is 
fully resolved.

   I'm going to knock some of the names off if I decide to publish 
this letter as they have not done me any harm that I know of and 
seem to be on this list because of Vanderboegh's doings.  But I want 
them to gain a thorough experience as to what happens if they get 
associated with a Vanderboegh.  A few lessons in wariness and 
communications security are in order for people who presume to 
run a militia unit.

Sincerely yours,


--Martin Lindstedt

----------~~~~~----------

A Steady Diet Made Him What He Is Today


Return-Path: (mdreports@juno.com)
To: mlindste@clandjop.com
Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 21:04:17 -0700
Subject: Re: Your friend, Mike Vanderboegh
References: (19970719054120400.AAA171@martinli)
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0
From: mdreports@juno.com (Robert A Ireland)

You really are a piece of shit aren't you?  ESAD nazi scum.

                   ---------------------------

Return-Path: (mdreports@juno.com)
To: mlindste@clandjop.com
Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 20:59:30 -0700
Subject: Re: A Modern Militiaman Examines "The Dees-Vanderboegh Two 
	Times" Part 2
References: (19970718151624355.AAB172@martinli)
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1
From: mdreports@juno.com (Robert A Ireland)

More allegations without fact.  You whiteboy bootlicks are sure pathetic.
 ESAD nazi scum.

                  ------------------------------

Return-Path: (mdreports@juno.com)
To: mlindste@clandjop.com
Date: Sun, 17 Aug 1997 21:06:54 -0700
Subject: Re: A Modern Militiaman Examines "The Dees-Vanderboegh Two 
	Times" Part 2
References: (19970718151624355.AAB172@martinli)
X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 0-3,5
From: mdreports@juno.com (Robert A Ireland)


>   In a Part 1, I used humor to highlight Vanderboegh's pretentions 
>as to the factual basis for his John Doe II Times.

Right!  your supposed humor is as funny as a trud in a swimming pool. 
ESAD nazi scum.

                    ---------------------------

Smile!  Your intellect is now on display on the Internet.  Now 
EVERYONE will know how smart and honorable you are!

   Check out The Dees-Vanderboegh Two-Times at:
      http://www.mo-net.com/~mlindste/dv2t.html

   It has been a pleasure doing the business with you.

--Martin Lindstedt

Copyright 1997. Dees-Vanderboegh Two-Times

.

.

Back to The Patriot Coalition?
Or Over to Patrick Henry On-Line?

.